Below is my translation of an interview that CNN en Español correspondent Ismael Cala conducted with Venezuelan Attorney General Luisa Ortega Diaz on Tuesday, April 29.
The interview was fairly cordial up until the last two minutes or so, when Diaz suggested – perhaps with no ill will – that Ismael “was not following Venezuelan news closely”. Her comment came after Ismael asked for an update on the Nairobi Pinto case.
If you’re not familiar with her case, Nairobi Pinto is a journalist who was kidnapped from just outside her home in Caracas back in April. She was released mysteriously with no conditions a week later. At no point was her family contacted by the kidnappers. At the time, some people wondered if the fact that Nairobi was a journalist had anything to do with her disappearance.
At a press conference shortly after her released, Nairobi spoke very briefly and offered no details regarding her ordeal.
The transcript is below. Some observations of the interview follow at the end of this page.
Ismael Cala: With all due respect, I have to make use of the voice of social media, which has changed and pluralized communications and even the way in which we conduct journalism through traditional channels. There are some comments that say, for example – Judith Romero says, “The Venezuelan Attorney General lives in a another country. My god…”There are many comments like this. And really, I’m surprised, because all of the suspected and alleged violations or accusations of [violations] of human rights, and you’ve told me that none of what I’ve told you is true. When it’s been reported, and CNN has reported, that there are dozens of accusations of torture, women who were applied – apparently – electricity to their breasts, others were threatened with rape, a young man was stripped naked in the middle of the street, an incident of the young man and the rifle. And you’re telling me that none of this is true? Or, I want to understand, if there is the possibility that some of this might be true once it is investigated?
Luisa Ortega Diaz: I’ve told you that there are 145 investigations of alleged violations of human rights. In other words, we in the Public Ministry, in regards to these events that have occurred since February 12 until now, have some [open] investigations. We are going to determine if those events did occur. If it’s shown that they did in fact occur, we are going to ask for sanctions against those who are found to be responsible, and we will apply those sanctions. So, Im not saying that what you’re saying isn’t true. I’m saying that, with respect to the young man who talked about the rifle, at least until now what the investigation has found is that it isn’t true that this event happened as you described it.
When it comes to other cases, of course, we are investigating, and the investigations – following the law and following the constitution, and following due process – will be the ones to give us a result. Undoubtedly, a current of opinion unfavourable to the Veneuzelan state has been developing through social networks. And not only through social networks. Right now, we’re facing a “4th Generation War”, in other words, not a war with rifles or cannons, but a war through social networks and the media. Well, we have always been a people who have faced all obstacles that have appeared and all of the attacks against the Venezuelan state with chivalry and bravery, and we will do the same in this case, and we will be victorious.
The Venezuelan government is committed — I invited you to read the Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. More than 286 articles that talk about human rights. And not only the constitution – last year, the Venezuelan state approved a law against torture. Do you think that a state that wants to violate human rights would a law of that nature? Not only that, but the lab which I mentioned is unique in the world. We don’t have knowledge of the existence of another lab like that in the world. Would we create a lab to investigate police officers if we didn’t want to sanction human rights violations? And that lab only investigates cases of human rights violations.
I also invite you to visit the Public Ministry website – www.mp.gov.ve – so that you can see the work we’re doing in the Public Ministry, including the work the Public Ministry lab is doing. When you visit Venezuela, I invite you to visit this lab so that you yourself can be witness how we our scientists and experts do their work.
Ismael Cala: Yes. I’ve been following over the last few days, especially before this interview, everything that you write on your Twitter account. I’ve seen your meetings, your work on commissions, I’ve read the article you wrote for Ultimas Noticias today, so I’m trying to keep up with what you’re doing. I imagine that it’s not easy being Attorney General in Venezuela right now.
Geraldine Moreno, a case of a woman who was killed by rubber bullets fired into her face. This is what we know. What’s the status of that case? Has the investigation made progress?
Luisa Ortega Diaz: Yes. We requested three arrest warrants. We are waiting for the warrants to be executed, and if not, we will take other measures. But in that case we are also committed to the truth and the clarification of that event.
Ismael Cala: There’s a lot of talk about political prisoners in Venezuela. The most emblematic case is that of the opposition politician Leopoldo Lopez. What is Lopez being charged with, and are there any political prisoners in Venezuela?
Luisa Ortega: No, there are no political prisoners, because political prisoners are in jail for their ideas and their ideologies. In the case of Venezuela, those are in jail are there for common crimes. For example, in the case of Leopoldo Lopez, one of the crimes of which he is being accused is arson [incendio en grado de determinador], association for the purposes of committing crimes, damages to public property [en grado de determinador], and public instigation. For example, the violent acts that started taking place on February 12 started here in the Public Ministry. The Public Ministry was almost burned. The façade of the Public Ministry [building] was practically destroyed. The library of the Public Ministry was burned. Historical documents, data going back 200 to 300 years, disappeared because they were burned. Seven buildings that house 800 people would have been burned because the only exit [to them] is the one that was here, blocked by demonstrators and where this man was. Unfortunately, all of us here would have died. Fortunately, things – a team was able to put out the fire and the damages weren’t great. But, do you think that an action like planning things like establishments, public offices, universities, burning the Ministry of Homes – the ministry that guarantees home for the poorest Venezuelans – the CDI that are medical centres for the poorest, a university –
Ismael Cala: — Yes, but what is the concrete evidence, what is the concrete evidence against Leopoldo? The evidence?
Luisa Ortega Diaz: Those are elements that were conveniently handed over to the Tribunal de Control [a court that makes sure the law is being followed during an investigation], so, more than 20 or 30 – I don’t have the number right now – but if you want I can invite you that when they hold the public audience, if it goes to trial, that you can witness the audience and see for yourself if the evidence presented by the officials, or those presented by the defence, are strong or not. But, on a program, asking me to –
Ismael Cala: Is there already a confirmed date for the audience?
Luisa Ortega Diaz: The preliminary audience – but that’s a private audience because that audience isn’t for getting to the bottom of the issue, that’s where if the law was followed is debated. Because the Control Judges are “guarantee judges”, to guarantee that due process was followed. If a trial is ordered, well, that will be public. And since you follow me on Twitter – @OrtegaDiaz – I will let you know through there.
Ismael Cala: Great, well, I will be reading because we have to stay informed. And believe me, for us it’s a right to be able to have – and I thank you greatly for having accepted our invitation to answer our questions. Today, by the way, the Institute for Human Rights of the International Lawyer’s Association demanded that the government withdraw all charges and compensate judge Maria Liosa Afiuni for physical and emotional damages. What do you think about this?
Luisa Ortega Diaz: Well, they have a right to demand what they want. In fact, Venezuela is so democratic that here people even ask for the President of the Republic to resign. Even though – legally and constitutionally – recall referendums and elections are provided. Still, you see that everyone through Twitter and through television programs disrespected the president and the authorities of different institutions.
Ismael Cala: An emblematic case is that of the ex-security secretary Ivan Simonovis, who has been detained since 2002, and according to his lawyers there was no evidence on which to convince him, and the opposition has asked that the executive to grant him amnesty due to his health. What do you think about this situation, who is as I say delicate health, and who is the subject of this petition?
Luisa Ortega Diaz: Yes, I’ve already spoken on that issue, on the case of Ivan Simonovis. It’s not in the Public Ministry’s power to grant amnesty, because that’s part of the legislation, and of the president. I’m always in favour of amnesty when it doesn’t imply impunity, because civil society always expects that the punitive power of the state be executed in cases where crimes have been committed. If this doesn’t happen, then a loss in confidence in the institutions of the state and in the penal justice occurs. If amnesty does not imply impunity, I agree with it.
Ismael Cala: Let’s go on to another case. Many people, including myself, wonder why there haven’t been any details regarding the Nairobi Pinto [case] – kidnapped, then released. Everyone says, “Why haven’t we heard any details about this?” Do you know what happened to her? Why haven’t we heard details?
Luisa Ortega Diaz: Yes, I think that you’re not following Venezuelan news closely, because the day that she appeared, she gave a press conference with the Minister of the Interior and Justice. She had the opportunity to explain some things. The Minister too. And after that, she gave a press conference. So, it’s not true that there hasn’t been any information about –
Ismael Cala: — But in the press conference she said, “I can’t give out any details for security reasons”. I’m asking you to give me details that no one has heard from the journalist or from the other person [the Minister of the Interior and Justice]. If I get kidnapped and give a press conference, and say, “I can’t give out any details for security reasons”, then the press conference didn’t contain any details.
Luisa Ortega Diaz: You’re asking me to put the security of a journalist at risk? I can’t do that. On the contrary, I –
Ismael Cala: — No, I’m asking you to stop saying I’m not informed. I’m asking that you stop saying I’m not informed. I’m asking you to respect me as I respect you, and that we don’t use the tactic of invalidating the journalist by saying that he’s not informed. We heard Nairobi say that she couldn’t give out details due to her security. If you answer me that question, I’ll be happy with your response. But don’t tell me again that I should be better informed on the situation in Venezuela. Do we agree?
Luisa Ortega Diaz: Goodnight.
Ismael Cala: Goodnight. Thank you very much for being with us tonight. Evidently, we have to have the ability to listen, and the ability to have a conversation. I’m tired of the fact that many people use the tactic of invalidating journalists in order to not answer – or evade – questions.
Here are a couple of observations I gathered from the interview:
1. On the human rights violations issue: Diaz’s argument that human rights are respected in Venezuela boils down to “We respect human rights because violating human rights is illegal”. The way she brushes aside the question of whether or not systemic human rights violations are taking place at the hands of security forces is extremely disturbing. She provides absolutely no evidence that the government is taking these accusations seriously aside from saying “we have a law against torture and a lab for investigating crimes”.
2. On the issue of political prisoners: As above, Diaz’s response to the question “Are there political prisoners in Venezuela?” is deliberately obtuse. “No, there are no political prisoners in Venezuela because we haven’t arrested anyone for their ideas”. This is simply an assertion. Asserting something does not make it true.
3. On Leopoldo Lopez’s legal status: Diaz was given an opportunity to clearly state what some of the evidence against Lopez is. She was unable to provide any. Instead, she retold the story of how the Public Ministry was attacked, how 800+ people lived near by, how the library was burned, etc. These acts of violence were terrible to be sure, but they are not evidence against Lopez. “We have audio recordings of Lopez planning and ordering the attack on the Public Ministry” is evidence. What Diaz did was retell an event.
In Venezuela 